Unfortunately, none of us has an answer, which will lend an explanation. In the course of history, these things happen.

As with numerous events before, the infantry and armored stood out front, and units such as the engineer regiments and companies, got lost in the shuffle. We cannot change how history recorded the events, but we can work to change this.

So here we are today to rectify this, and I must admit, we are making good headway.

M1

Hi PJW,

I had to laugh because my complaint when I started doing research on my fathers unit-the 1251st was that I could find more info on Civil War units than on his. The info is out there, just sometimes hard to find.

Darlene

There is some info available but definitley hard to find, just gotta dig a little deeper with the magical research mouse.

a couple of sites.

1142 COMBAT ENGINEERS MEMORIAL WEBSITE

1111th Engineer Group in the Bulge.pdf

This study examines the role of U.S. Army Engineers fighting as infantry in AirLand Battle by analyzing the actions of the 1111th Engineer Combat Group during the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944.

Some thoughts on the question PJW asked about availability of records.

I`d be willing to bet that the histories & operations reports of all The Engineer Combat Groups are in the the National Archives in Washington..... so why arent they available? It may be a case of numbers.

First someone has to make them available. It takes time and money to get the records out of the archives. A veteren of the unit, or a son or daughter or grandchild has to have a desire & resources to research, build a website, etc.

An ECG was basicaly a Headquarters & Headquarters Company consisting of 15 officers, and 69 enlisted men probably with little turnover rate of personal. So you have maybe 100 veterens & using the the standard 2.5 children per household, thats a pool of around 300 people with an interest in that group. now compare that to an Engineer Battalion of about 630 officers & men giving a pool of around 16,000 people interested , or an armour or infantry division of 10 - 15,000 men with a high turnover rate the pool could be 100,000 people.

So you can see the number of people from which that 1 person who will get that info out is extremely small for the ECGs & the same holds true for other small "rear echelon" units.

I havent checked how many members of this forum have joined looking specificaly for info on on a ECG but it seems to me that the number is relatively small.

Other sources that provide online documents & reports give a higher priorty to the combat units like M1 said.

Some thoughts on the question PJW asked about availability of records.

 

I`d be willing to bet that the histories & operations reports of all The Engineer Combat Groups are in the the National Archives in Washington..... so why arent they available? It may be a case of numbers.

First someone has to make them available. It takes time and money to get the records out of the archives. A veteren of the unit, or a son or daughter or grandchild has to have a desire & resources to research, build a website, etc.

An ECG was basicaly a Headquarters & Headquarters Company consisting of 15 officers, and 69 enlisted men probably with little turnover rate of personal. So you have maybe 100 veterens & using the the standard 2.5 children per household, thats a pool of around 300 people with an interest in that group. now compare that to an Engineer Battalion of about 630 officers & men giving a pool of around 16,000 people interested , or an armour or infantry division of 10 - 15,000 men with a high turnover rate the pool could be 100,000 people.

So you can see the number of people from which that 1 person who will get that info out is extremely small for the ECGs & the same holds true for other small "rear echelon" units.

I havent checked how many members of this forum have joined looking specificaly for info on on a ECG but it seems to me that the number is relatively small.

 

Other sources that provide online documents & reports give a higher priorty to the combat units like M1 said.

Hi everyone

Thanks for the relies and links. SonofaMP I never thought about the math end of it, good thinking. I have someone at the N.A. I can contact to see if any histories or reports on ECG's are available.If so a summer trip there maybe in order as i'm only about 5 hours away.Thanks again and if I come up with anything good I'ill post it.

PJW

PJW:

What group are you looking for? A book called "Engineer History - Fifth Army - Mediterranean Theater" printed in 1945 covers the Italian campaigns in WW2. It briefly describes tactical situations and engineer unit operations -- battalions, regiments, and groups. Of course it's hard to find, but I got it on loan from Ft. Belvoir via my local library.

Peanuts

I actually have the three book set. Al Kincer gave it to me as a present. I was very grateful!

I would write or e-mail the Army Heritage and Education Center and the Army War College. They have an abundance of material. They helped me alot while I was researching my dad's unit, the 157th.

At the start of the war non-divisional Engineer units were generally organized as Regiments. In order to add flexibility, regiments were converted to groups; by separating the battalions and converting the regimental HQ into a group. In regiments the regimental headquarters almost always exercised direct command and control over the battalions. Once the Army changed to groups the battalions became the main operational unit of the Engineer Corps. Groups were small planning, command and control elements that managed jobs. Two to five battalions would be assigned to groups for the completion of a certain project. This is why when looking at unit histories, battalion histories are almost always larger than group histories. Several groups did publish small unit histories. PJW which Group are you looking for?

Hi:

1251st veteran, Dick Deise, just supplied me with the unit's roll call and travel log. I placed these on the main site this morning:

http://www.6thcorpsc...com/history.htm

Will also upload here. Thanks Dick and thanks to Darlene for supplying the two missing pages.

1251st Bn Log.pdf

1251st Engineer Combat Bn - Roll Call.pdf

Hmmm, when I sent an email to all my vets this month, I'm sorry to say that Dick's email bounced. Sigh! I hate seeing that with a passion, but I know it's to be expected. Nonetheless, it never makes it easy. I plan on sending a letter to the family...

I just happened to be going through a pile of letters, etc, this week, and who should happen to pop up, yes, it was Ed. He had sent me a photo and a note. I am sharing here with you.

Ernie Pyle Bridge from Dick Deise.pdf